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Mon, 27 Oct 2025 12:44:01 +0100

ErikJonker@mastodon.social

Read this excellent thread by @Mer__edith about Amazon/AWS, Signal, Cloud infrastructure and our dependency on the big 3/4.
https://mastodon.world/@Mer__edith/115445701583902092
#signal #amazon #aws #ICT #cloud

show all 13 comments

Mon, 27 Oct 2025 13:07:23 +0100

Ronny Lam

ronnylam@mastodon.social

@ErikJonker @Mer__edith And what's your take on it. That we should defend the fact that companies are addicted to hyperscalers because there is no other choice? There is always a choice. And it begins with design decisions. If you rely on features that only the hyperscalars can provide than you're sold. If we accept this fact, than the future is hyperscalar-only with potentially dystopian results. Time to move on. There are enough p2p and federated services that do not rely on hyperscalars.

Mon, 27 Oct 2025 13:10:34 +0100 last edited: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 13:12:07 +0100

@BjornW@mastodon.social

BjornW@mastodon.social

@ErikJonker
@Mer__edith's thread was indeed interesting. The thing I was missing is the possibility of federated/decentralized solutions instead of a centralized solution operated by one entity.

Would it be possible to decentralize & federate Signal?Using multiple different entities cooperating & sharing the burden & not just selfhosters? Would this solve Signal's SPOFs: technical & organizational? Could this lower the dependence on hyperscalers subsidized by business?

Mon, 27 Oct 2025 14:01:49 +0100 last edited: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 14:03:41 +0100

GJ Groothedde 🇪🇺

Eetschrijver@mastodon.social

@BjornW @ErikJonker @Mer__edith I'm not an expert, but I think they might run into latency problems?

Mon, 27 Oct 2025 14:02:54 +0100

Erik Jonker

ErikJonker@mastodon.social

@BjornW @Mer__edith ...although i am a big fan of decentralized/federated solution i am wondering whether such a solution can support low-latency videocalling and things like that? The service quality needed can never be reached with selfhosters alone, however a more decentralized infrastructure then the current would be nice... For example european countries together can in the future maybe organise such an infrastructure.

Mon, 27 Oct 2025 14:15:59 +0100

Misuse Case

MisuseCase@twit.social

@ronnylam @ErikJonker >> If you rely on features that only the hyperscalars can provide than you're sold.

The core/essential features of Signal do in fact rely on hyperscalers as @Mer__edith explains very clearly in the linked thread and it’s not really possible to “design them away.” Is Signal supposed to cut encrypted voice and video calls? Because that’s the practical upshot of what you’re suggesting.

Mon, 27 Oct 2025 14:18:48 +0100

Misuse Case

MisuseCase@twit.social

@ErikJonker @Mer__edith There are a fair few people replying to her who either can’t understand or don’t want to understand what she explains *very clearly* in that thread.

The recent popularity and adoption of Signal is, I feel, related to the uptick in silly criticisms of Signal, coupled with insistence that people use a variety of more obscure and much less user-friendly messaging solutions.

Mon, 27 Oct 2025 14:26:01 +0100

Ronny Lam

ronnylam@mastodon.social

@MisuseCase @ErikJonker @Mer__edith Indeed, that could be a consequence. Again, it all has to do with design decisions. There was a time when Signal didn't have voice, video even came later. If only the hyperscalars can provide them you are basically locked-in. And I doubt if that reliance is even needed. Maybe jitter doesn't have to be sub-microsecond, for example. Relying on these infrastructures breaks down the democratic values and trust in these applications.

Mon, 27 Oct 2025 16:44:22 +0100

@BjornW@mastodon.social

BjornW@mastodon.social

@ErikJonker @Mer__edith

I'm not an expert & do not know for certain.

I do think it should be possible, depending on the details. For instance how many people in a call, amount of bandwidth needed etc. Developments like

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebRTC

https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/matthew/group-voip/proposals/3401-group-voip.md

Make me hopeful that decentralized & federated low latency video calls are a possibility.

Maybe some experts would like to explain why it is (not) possible and what the constrains are?

Mon, 27 Oct 2025 19:26:57 +0100

Misuse Case

MisuseCase@twit.social

@ronnylam @ErikJonker @Mer__edith >> There was a time when Signal didn't have voice, video even came later.

They have it because a large portion of Signal’s userbase wanted secure voice and video communications.

“Signal should be redesigned the way I want to eliminate services demanded and actively used by a majority of its user base” is the most astounding foolery I’ve heard all month, and that’s saying something.

Tue, 28 Oct 2025 13:08:30 +0100

Ronny Lam

ronnylam@mastodon.social

@MisuseCase @ErikJonker @Mer__edith That is not what I am saying. I am not demanding a redesign, nor do I ignore the demand from a majority of the user base. What I am saying is that if for some users the tool does not reflect their democratic values and trust is undermined, then it is time for users to move on. I might be one of them. If Signal joins the Big-tech league then they will lose a certain, maybe small, user base. Just like what happened to WhatsApp.

Tue, 28 Oct 2025 16:11:11 +0100

Hans van Zijst

hans@social.woefdram.nl

@@BjornW@mastodon.social As anyone who knows me will confirm, I'm a big fan of Matrix, and have been for years.

This means that my opinion will undoubtedly be biased, but I can confirm that federated audio and video over WebRTC works fine (at least for participants that have a half decent connection).

Matrix uses WebRTC in Element Call and my experience with that is good.

I just had a video call with my brother via Signal, and that had more latency than my typical calls via Matrix. Just sayin' 😇

@Ronny Lam @Erik Jonker @Misuse Case @Meredith Whittaker

Tue, 28 Oct 2025 16:19:08 +0100

Erik Jonker

ErikJonker@mastodon.social

@hans @ronnylam @BjornW good to hear, no experience with Matrix myself but at least on the conceptual level I am also a fan 😃

Tue, 28 Oct 2025 17:10:17 +0100

Hans van Zijst

hans@social.woefdram.nl

@Erik Jonker I can fix you an account on my server if you want.